Hell

This is a forum for posting Spiritual essays of human thought and experience. Please do not post celestial messages here or copy written material without the owner’s permission.
Post Reply
User avatar
11light11
Family
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:44 pm
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 1111
Location: Illinois, United States of America

Hell

Post by 11light11 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:10 am

Hello everyone! Hope you're all doing well! :hithere

I've been thinking about hell a lot the past few days, and how odd it is as a religious teaching. I find it very difficult to conclude that hell as a concept is anything other than a fear tactic, and it boggles the mind a bit than any religious or spiritual person could buy into such a hateful teaching as this. Because I was raised Catholic I did fear the threat of hell growing up, and my mind turns to it often in trying to puzzle out the layers. I do not 'believe' in hell, but what I want to explore here is the very concept itself, the way that it is used, and why I feel that it could never have been possible that such a place existed.

When people speak about Jesus, I think they tend to forget that he and his followers were all Jews. Everyone who lived in that part of the world at that time was either Jewish or Roman. There really weren't too many other influences. Now, if Jesus was Jewish, and the Christian faith sprung up out of his life . . .where did the idea of hell develop? Jews don't believe in hell. Who invented hell, and when did they invent it?

One of the things I find most painful about hell is that a great many people go on believing in it, and I think about what tremendous suffering this must cause for them. An example often comes to my mind of a little old Italian lady (frankly, I'm picturing my own grandmother, who was 4'5" and spent hours praying the rosary every day :lol: ). If you've ever known one of these tiny little ethnic Roman Catholic ladies, you will know exactly what I mean -- they are fervently religious, and are very deeply moved in their prayer sessions. Now imagine one of these little old ladies having a husband and a son who is in the mafia. It's happened thousands and thousands of times, right? They pretend they don't know what their husband is up to -- but they know. Of course they know. And they're Catholic.

Now believing as they do, they must believe that their husband and their son will go to hell when they die. They're there killing people, stealing, and breaking commandment after commandment, day after day. The level of violence in that culture is astonishing, and there is very little in the way of "good works" either.

Supposing this little old lady has led a relatively quiet, 'good' life -- raising her family; caring for everyone; cooking and cleaning and so on, as Italian ladies do. She is relatively free from sin . . .certainly even she must believe she will be allowed into heaven.

But what about her husband? What about her son?

So while she is here on this earth -- she suffers the tortures of hell because she believes they will one day go to hell. This creates hell on earth, and here it isn't even true! All that pain and heartache she must feel, and for what?

Meanwhile, supposing that this little old lady is correct in her thinking - her husband really will be damned to hell when he dies. But the little old lady will make it into heaven. Will it truly be a heaven? If the two people you love most in this world, your husband and your son, are damned to hell, heaven ceases to be heaven, doesn't it? It's not paradise at all -- it has transformed into hell.

If the righteous go to heaven and sinners go to hell, then all the righteous who love sinners are also damned to hell. This is another reason that the teaching of hell is impossible. It is too cruel. It takes us beyond personal responsibility and puts us in a position where we suffer even with the choices of others.

Then there is the layer that a loving God could not allow such a place. When I tortured myself as a young child with fears of hell, I imagined the worst -- just as I was taught to do. And even as a child, I couldn't imagine anyone being guilty of a crime so great as to be sent to such a place for the whole of eternity. So to imagine a God who could send a soul to that place -- ! It is unthinkable. It would be bad enough if it was just for a visit -- even that would be insane. But for all of eternity? It's not possible. If God indeed sends souls to such a place, he's frankly not worth worshiping; he's no better than the devil. He is the devil!

Growing up with the belief that God does indeed send souls to this place, it made it very difficult for me to find God as a loving figure. I was terrified of God, and I was constantly worried that I was upsetting him. He seemed so touchy in all the stories I'd ever heard about him -- and he had allowed his son to go through that hideous torture all for our supposed benefit.

Coming to this board years ago and learning about the Lucifer Rebellion was such a sunny day for me. In the days since, learning more about our Midwayer friends and the wonderful work they do has done a great deal to soothe my mind. I am slowly healing from the painful lessons of my upbringing, and while I no longer fear the threat of hell, nor believe such a place exists, it pains me to witness how many go on believing in this place, and speaking of those who will inevitably be sent there.

Those who speak 'in Jesus' name' and condemn others to hell -- I find this unspeakably cruel. When I see picketers holding up signs proclaiming that God hates gay people and that they will go to hell . . .these are religious people? I see folks with those bracelets that say WWJD -- What would Jesus Do? -- and I just think, do you think he'd do this? Hold up those ugly signs? I never read a story like that about Jesus. Wasn't he the one who urged us to stop judging others?

It's such a blessing to me to find this lovely 11:11 home, and to know that there are like-minded people who view God as a figure of love, not the old fire and brimstone figure many of us were raised to revere/cower in the presence of. I prefer this softer God, this gentle and loving God, and I can't thank our family here on this board enough for giving me a safe place to land after all those years fearing the worst. Thank you to all of you!

If anyone here has stories to share or their own thoughts about hell, I would love to hear your ideas. It's a comfort to me and it would be interesting at the same time.

With love to everyone, Michele :love :kiss: :loves

User avatar
overmind
Moderator
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:45 am
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 1111
Location: U.S.
Contact:

Re: Hell

Post by overmind » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:36 pm

I believe hell first came about in the King James version of the bible. She'ol, hades and a few other words were translated into hell. I studied this more when I was younger, so I don't quite remember it all. It is true that the threat of hell was a fear tactic, but this may have actually been necessary at times to either spread the young seeds of spirituality or get people to behave. There are many ways in which this doctrine has influenced people, and it is hard to analyze every aspect. The reason similar places appear in stories, mythology, theology, etc., is that humans are in love with justice. Not fair, divine or merciful justice, just their personal idea of it. Humans are naturally good, but this goodness is easily twisted or tainted if the right education and upbringing isn't present. And since not much is understood about higher cosmic values, we are mostly left to our own devices.

People will gladly make sacrifices in order to punish wrongdoers because it fulfills this need to judge. It is rooted in our desire to protect our values. Religion would not be so slow to change if this were not the case. It is not necessarily a bad thing though. If a human is instilled with the right values and beliefs, they will be nurtured and protected in most cases. However, there are also some obvious problems. Most want all others to have their own beliefs. This expands into several areas, including law, religion, economics, science, history, education and even the structure of government. People want to reach agreements, but usually in the form of others agreeing with them. This trait can easily breed hatred, distrust, argument, you name it. Even if someone possesses advanced revelation and even understands the will of God, that desire for everyone to be the same as them (possessing the same knowledge and beliefs) will persist. Who wouldn't want this information to be shared? Knowledge is power, especially for those who possess it first. And if someone thinks something to be the truth, then it would be best for that truth to be acknowledged by all.

Those who believe in hell may believe that it necessary to convert as many people as possible so that fewer will end up there. This may be the greatest form of love they are able to express. Perhaps by instilling others with fear, they can get them to change their ways. The big problem is that these people are projecting baser human values and emotions onto God, while God is doing the opposite and trying to spiritualize our thinking. Many simply don't know better. God is depicted as a tyrant by those who may mean well, which then makes those with slightly higher morals turn away from God. The more spiritual humans will probably realize that God is being put in a bad light, and try to correct this behavior, but that involves struggling with both fundamentalists and atheists. It is all a huge mess.

User avatar
Welles
Family
Posts: 990
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:55 pm
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 1111
Location: Santa Cruz, CA USA
Contact:

Re: Hell

Post by Welles » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:37 am

I once addressed Hell in the final 1.25 paragraphs :P of a little essay entitled Free Will.

There is no Hell. One either embraces reality and exists or rejects it and ceases to exist. That's a shocker, huh? Hell was a purely artificial concept made up by human beings who hadn't themselves actually experienced that the structure of the universe was Love. Hell's function was to use fear to draw people to organizations that were purportedly rooted in Love. You might consider it a psychic protection racket that's become imbedded in the human psyche by the historical weight of authoritative repetition.

Well hell's bells! To hell in a hand basket. What the hell does he know? Hell hath no fury like a mercy scorned. Go to hell. To hell and back. What the hell! Hello?

Image
Welles

User avatar
11light11
Family
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:44 pm
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 1111
Location: Illinois, United States of America

Re: Hell

Post by 11light11 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:04 pm

Hi overmind!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about hell. I really enjoyed these ideas so much:
The big problem is that these people are projecting baser human values and emotions onto God, while God is doing the opposite and trying to spiritualize our thinking. Many simply don't know better. God is depicted as a tyrant by those who may mean well, which then makes those with slightly higher morals turn away from God. The more spiritual humans will probably realize that God is being put in a bad light, and try to correct this behavior, but that involves struggling with both fundamentalists and atheists. It is all a huge mess.
I think that pretty well hits the nail on the head. ;)

I liked your essay so much, Welles. Thank you for sharing it with us here on this page.

We're lucky to have the both of you sharing your ideas . . . here's hope for a brighter future for all of us.

With love, Michele :love :loves

User avatar
Geoff
Site Admin
Posts: 4908
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:15 am
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 46372
Please type in these numbers:91294: 91284
Location: Bayview, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hell

Post by Geoff » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:30 am

Aah well here comes the other POV. (The Devils Advocate?) :roll: :lol: :lol:

There has to be a hell.

Because we don't get magically changed by dying. What does happen, is the tares get sorted from the wheat. In other words, every single person gets sorted exactly according to who they really are. (The Law of Attraction being ABOVE the Law of Free Will in this dimension, as opposed to here, where Free Will is above the LOA) And that is what makes it a heaven for those that really are loving. And a hell for those that are really nasty dangerous animals. Because they are well separated, not into two camps, but into literally thousands upon thousands of camps. Each camp just precisely right for that individual. In my own case, my sister, my mother and my father are widely separated. The most advanced (my mother) can visit the other two as often as she likes. They can't visit her, because you cannot go beyond your own level of advancement.

And of course there are quite a number of very reliable descriptions of the hells.
“In this hell of mine, and there are many like it, instead of beautiful homes, as the other spirits described, we have dirty, rotten hovels all crooked and decayed, with all the foul smells of a charnel house ten times intensified, and instead of beautiful lawns and green meadows and leafy woods filled with musical birds making the echoes ring with their songs, we have barren wastes, and holes of darkness and gloom and the cries and cursings of spirits of damnation without hope; and instead of living, silvery waters we have stagnant pools filled with all kinds of repulsive reptiles and vermin, and smells of inexpressible, nauseating stinks.

I tell you that these are all real, and not creatures of the imagination or the outflowing of bitter recollections. And as for love, it has never shown its humanizing face in all the years that I have been here - only cursings and hatred and bitter scathings and imprecations, and grinning spirits with their witchlike cacklings. No rest, no hope, no kind words or ministering hand to wipe away the scalding tears which so often flow in mighty volumes. No, hell is real and hell is here.

We do not have any fire and brimstone, or grinning devils with pitchforks and hoofs and horns as the churches teach; but what is the need or necessity for such accompaniments? They would not add to the horrors or to our torments. I tell you my friend that I have faintly described our homes in these infernal regions and I cannot picture them as they are.

But the horror and pity of it all is that hope does not come to us with one faint smile to encourage us that there may at some time be an ending to all these torments, and in our hopeless despair we realize that our doom is fixed for all eternity.

As the rich man in hell said, if I could only send Lazarus to tell my poor, erring brothers on earth of what awaits them, how gladly I would do so and save their souls from the eternal torment.”
But the point to understand, is that each of these individuals are only there because of what and who they are, at that time - NOW. And as soon as they chose to change, they won't be there anymore. But change comes slowly, which is why it can take a very long time to progress out of the deepest hells. Its not about punishment, its about being where you belong. So its not like here, where you may get 10 years for murder, you will stay there as long as it takes to stop being capable of murder. Its not a "judgement" that puts you here, but soul condition. Its not God that punishes, but simply that each soul must be in harmony, even if that harmony seems out of whack to others. Its where they fit in.

For sources that describe the hells try these books:

Antony Borgia : Life in the World Unseen

J.S.M. Ward : Three Narratives of After Death Experiences

Franchezzo: A Wanderer in the Spirit Lands

And of course almost dozens of short but first hand experiences: The Hells

By the by, you may THINK the UB does not have a place for 'hell" but its in Mansion World Number 1, the lowest planes. Indeed by the standards of fused beings, all of Mansion World 1 is considered dark, but for us humans, coming from a dark planet, the top plane is much the same as here. Which is why the vast majority of us transition there, and not typically any higher.

hugs
Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.
~ said Jesus through Glenda Green in "Love without End" ~

User avatar
11light11
Family
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:44 pm
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 1111
Location: Illinois, United States of America

Re: Hell

Post by 11light11 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:31 pm

Hi Geoff!

Thanks for reviving this old thread. :hithere I appreciate you taking the time to address my questions about hell!

You know, I've come to see things as you describe them here, where what we might call 'hell' is merely the state of things when a soul gravitates toward others like itself -- at least, others who are on the same level upon dying. Also in line with your ideas here, I believe that such emotional experiences as guilt and remorse could tend to elevate that soul. What is so different about these ideas as compared with the standard idea of hell is that it is not inevitable, and it is not eternal. As well, even as bad as the description of 'hell' looks in the passage you quoted, it's still not quite as severe as the idea of burning eternally in that godforsaken place Christians grow up hearing about.

Also, it is my understanding that gravitating toward such a place is not based upon having been 'judged.' As you point out with your discussion of the Law of Attraction, it's simply a result of the state of things. But it's a different view than one that has God holding a gavel and 'condemning' a soul to an eternal hell.

I've felt that of guilt and remorse, guilt is the less advanced of the two emotions. Shame would precede even guilt. I think of shame as being a type of embarrassment at having been caught doing or exhibiting something; guilt as the reaction that allows the person to feel badly about his actions, and yet limited to a more self-centered feeling, e.g. "I am a bad person" as opposed to "I hurt so and so and that causes me pain, because I love that person." Meanwhile, remorse is the elevated state, the height of this trio of emotional experiences. This is the state of being where one suffers for the other, and is not merely coming from an egoistic place. I believe that when one attains to genuine remorse, they elevate. I've seen it enough times, and it positively transforms the person.

Geoff, do you believe that upon dying, a person (soul) goes through a life review? It always seems to me that if that were the case, then such a review would offer ample opportunity to graduate from shame to guilt to remorse. In witnessing the many areas in which one's actions impacted others, and wherever a pattern of such behavior begins to emerge, the person is afforded a chance to evolve. I don't even necessarily feel this would come from a change in one's actions. I feel in such a witnessing, the very state of the soul advances. A soul changes as a result. Even here on this earth while we are still alive, we can experience such changes. So I wonder -- at the time of death, having gravitated toward like souls who are in a similarly dark place, a soul is given an immediate opportunity to go through such growth, by virtue of taking a look around them. If they see souls who are still firmly rooted in the surety of their harmful actions, I think this too could have an influence. If this contrasts with the soul's inner feeling of guilt or remorse, they might take still another look at themselves and find a profound change unfolding, organically.

These ideas are still infinitely softer to me than the more traditional descriptions of hell. I suppose at the bottom of it I find this question: What does God expect of us, in terms of responsibility? If God has witnessed our lifetimes, then he is aware of the many influences which brought us to a place where we could have behaved so 'badly' as to have wound up in some version of 'hell.' Because all such stories are tragic and sad, it's hard to see God judging such a soul for having wound up there. When you hear about the life stories of men such as Ted Bundy, for instance, there is no 'blame' I feel comfortable assigning. Our neighborhoods in the U.S.A. that yield gang members also house individuals whose 'bad behaviors' come from similarly unmysterious origins. Life is so hard, and we struggle immensely -- some more than others. So much 'bad behavior' is a result of complex pain and a divergent developmental process. With any degree of mental illness, it's hard to say a person is 'bad' -- instead, I'm tempted to say that a person committing crime or causing harm to others is under an alternative influence than those who are able to choose 'good' behaviors when they recognize impulses to behave more selfishly.

We talked about this in my social work program. The professor asked: Is anyone in the criminal justice system "bad"? Or are these people each suffering with some level of mental illness, or an upset to their developmental process? Sure, in the case of abject poverty, a 'thief' may have merely been attempting to feed himself or his family with his 'crime.' But in the cases of rape, murder, pedophilia and so on, are these crimes the result of a person being 'bad,' or instead 'wounded'? We talked the subject to death, but we always wound up in the same place: These people are damaged, as are their victims in the wake of their wrongdoings. But it's hard to point a finger and say these people are 'bad.' They became disturbed due to factors none of us would have chosen to be subjected to, and that were largely outside these people's control. The professor pointed out how black-and-white our criminal justice system really is, to where, by the time someone is on trial for murder, they have the option of pleading "Not guilty by reason of insanity." Insane might be a strong word, but something shy of "insane" might still indicate that a person finds himself on trial due to mental illness to some degree. This might not account for crimes of passion, perhaps, but certainly many famous cases have involved people who suffer from some form of psychopathology.

With that professor's discussion in mind, I can't see God as unable or unwilling to recognize "why" some of these people behave as they do, and unilaterally declare them 'bad.' Even winding up in a version of hell, where like souls are grouped together and the environs are so painful is difficult for me to comprehend. The suffering has been immense, both that which has caused the behaviors but also that which harmed others. And now there is still more suffering. I just wonder about mercy and compassion from the God who witnesses these things. How can one grow and evolve from within the framework of lifelong pain and suffering?

I have hope for souls who fall into that category and I like to pray for them, in case they need extra help in finding remorse.

Thanks so much for sharing your ideas Geoff! :sunflower: :kiss:

What do you think about my questions?

With love to you! Michele

User avatar
Sandy
Staff
Posts: 16673
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:51 pm
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 1111
Location: Illawarra District, New South Wales, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hell

Post by Sandy » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:40 am

Hi Michele and Geoff too..
I enjoyed as always reading your thoughts on this subject and others...

Geoff wrote:
By the by, you may THINK the UB does not have a place for 'hell" but its in Mansion World Number 1, the lowest planes. Indeed by the standards of fused beings, all of Mansion World 1 is considered dark, but for us humans, coming from a dark planet, the top plane is much the same as here. Which is why the vast majority of us transition there, and not typically any higher.
It might be helpful to read this paper in the Urantia Book Paper 47 The Seven Mansion Worlds http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-sta ... ion-worlds

In part 3. The First Mansion World you can find this rather comforting message for all of us imperfect creatures...

3. The First Mansion World

(532.7) 47:3.1 On the mansion worlds the resurrected mortal survivors resume their lives just where they left off when overtaken by death. When you go from Urantia to the first mansion world, you will notice considerable change, but if you had come from a more normal and progressive sphere of time, you would hardly notice the difference except for the fact that you were in possession of a different body; the tabernacle of flesh and blood has been left behind on the world of nativity.

(532.8) 47:3.2 The very center of all activities on the first mansion world is the resurrection hall, the enormous temple of personality assembly. This gigantic structure consists of the central rendezvous of the seraphic destiny guardians, the Thought Adjusters, and the archangels of the resurrection. The Life Carriers also function with these celestial beings in the resurrection of the dead.

(533.1) 47:3.3 The mortal-mind transcripts and the active creature-memory patterns as transformed from the material levels to the spiritual are the individual possession of the detached Thought Adjusters; these spiritized factors of mind, memory, and creature personality are forever a part of such Adjusters. The creature mind-matrix and the passive potentials of identity are present in the morontia soul intrusted to the keeping of the seraphic destiny guardians. And it is the reuniting of the morontia-soul trust of the seraphim and the spirit-mind trust of the Adjuster that reassembles creature personality and constitutes resurrection of a sleeping survivor.

(533.2) 47:3.4 If a transitory personality of mortal origin should never be thus reassembled, the spirit elements of the nonsurviving mortal creature would forever continue as an integral part of the individual experiential endowment of the onetime indwelling Adjuster.

(533.3) 47:3.5 From the Temple of New Life there extend seven radial wings, the resurrection halls of the mortal races. Each of these structures is devoted to the assembly of one of the seven races of time. There are one hundred thousand personal resurrection chambers in each of these seven wings terminating in the circular class assembly halls, which serve as the awakening chambers for as many as one million individuals. These halls are surrounded by the personality assembly chambers of the blended races of the normal post-Adamic worlds. Regardless of the technique which may be employed on the individual worlds of time in connection with special or dispensational resurrections, the real and conscious reassembly of actual and complete personality takes place in the resurrection halls of mansonia number one. Throughout all eternity you will recall the profound memory impressions of your first witnessing of these resurrection mornings.

(533.4) 47:3.6 From the resurrection halls you proceed to the Melchizedek sector, where you are assigned permanent residence. Then you enter upon ten days of personal liberty. You are free to explore the immediate vicinity of your new home and to familiarize yourself with the program which lies immediately ahead. You also have time to gratify your desire to consult the registry and call upon your loved ones and other earth friends who may have preceded you to these worlds. At the end of your ten-day period of leisure you begin the second step in the Paradise journey, for the mansion worlds are actual training spheres, not merely detention planets.

(533.5) 47:3.7 On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.

(533.6) 47:3.8 Almost the entire experience of mansion world number one pertains to deficiency ministry. Survivors arriving on this first of the detention spheres present so many and such varied defects of creature character and deficiencies of mortal experience that the major activities of the realm are occupied with the correction and cure of these manifold legacies of the life in the flesh on the material evolutionary worlds of time and space.

(534.1) 47:3.9 The sojourn on mansion world number one is designed to develop mortal survivors at least up to the status of the post-Adamic dispensation on the normal evolutionary worlds. Spiritually, of course, the mansion world students are far in advance of such a state of mere human development.


(534.2) 47:3.10 If you are not to be detained on mansion world number one, at the end of ten days you will enter the translation sleep and proceed to world number two, and every ten days thereafter you will thus advance until you arrive on the world of your assignment.

(534.3) 47:3.11 The center of the seven major circles of the first mansion world administration is occupied by the temple of the Morontia Companions, the personal guides assigned to ascending mortals. These companions are the offspring of the local universe Mother Spirit, and there are several million of them on the morontia worlds of Satania. Aside from those assigned as group companions, you will have much to do with the interpreters and translators, the building custodians, and the excursion supervisors. And all of these companions are most co-operative with those who have to do with developing your personality factors of mind and spirit within the morontia body.

(534.4) 47:3.12 As you start out on the first mansion world, one Morontia Companion is assigned to each company of one thousand ascending mortals, but you will encounter larger numbers as you progress through the seven mansion spheres. These beautiful and versatile beings are companionable associates and charming guides. They are free to accompany individuals or selected groups to any of the transition-culture spheres, including their satellite worlds. They are the excursion guides and leisure associates of all ascending mortals. They often accompany survivor groups on periodic visits to Jerusem, and on any day you are there, you can go to the registry sector of the system capital and meet ascending mortals from all seven of the mansion worlds since they freely journey back and forth between their residential abodes and the system headquarters.
I guess for me everything must make sense against the backdrop of God"s unconditional Love and that of His/Her emissaries in the universes of time, The Local Universe Creator Sons. We are told and I believe this with all my heart, that God knows everything about us from our minute beginnings to infinity as we move through eternity. We are also told God is merciful and what merciful/loving Parent would not provide helpful avenues of assistance, should we seek them should even the tiniest part of us wish to progress?
It must be scary and even frustrating for some individuals, though, who may arrive with very little memories of spiritual qualities as they try to sort out this new realm... but it seems there are beings whose job it is to assist. At least according to the Ubook anyway. ;) :)
Yes, we must of our own accord choose love but if you have never really known love, how can you be expected to choose it? With gentle offerings from others, be they Angels, innumerable types of Celestials or other human survivors who all reflect Divine love, like a seed responding to water, nourishment and sunlight, we have the opportunity to grow and in my own thoughts this is the business of the Mansion Worlds, regardless of where or how we are "sorted" at some time after arrival.
With all that said, the business of watering souls with love begins here in the mortal plane and with us. :mrgreen: So dust off your "Love buckets" everybody and get to work! ;)
love,
Sandy
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.

~ Chief Seattle ~

User avatar
Geoff
Site Admin
Posts: 4908
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:15 am
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 46372
Please type in these numbers:91294: 91284
Location: Bayview, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hell

Post by Geoff » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:27 am

Dear Michelle,

Great to be chatting to you again.
11light11 wrote:Geoff, do you believe that upon dying, a person (soul) goes through a life review? It always seems to me that if that were the case, then such a review would offer ample opportunity to graduate from shame to guilt to remorse. In witnessing the many areas in which one's actions impacted others, and wherever a pattern of such behavior begins to emerge, the person is afforded a chance to evolve. I don't even necessarily feel this would come from a change in one's actions. I feel in such a witnessing, the very state of the soul advances. A soul changes as a result. Even here on this earth while we are still alive, we can experience such changes. So I wonder -- at the time of death, having gravitated toward like souls who are in a similarly dark place, a soul is given an immediate opportunity to go through such growth, by virtue of taking a look around them. If they see souls who are still firmly rooted in the surety of their harmful actions, I think this too could have an influence. If this contrasts with the soul's inner feeling of guilt or remorse, they might take still another look at themselves and find a profound change unfolding, organically.
There may even be two life reviews, but I am not sure of the purpose of the first and it is perhaps only for NDEs since they are not "there" very long. Many in NDE's talk about a life review, even if they are literally only "dead" maybe 60 minutes. But "really dead" folks don't seem to experience that in the first 60 minutes as far as I can tell. However "really dead" guys certainly are assailed by every error they chose. And some have reported this being like a "movie" and having a counsellor present to help, but in the case of really dark spirits they seem to be all alone even for centuries with their memories. I get the feeling that you are of the opinion that folks will change in five minutes after seeing how they really behaved on earth, and the hurt and damage they caused. But its not like that. You simply cant change your thoughts that are you, and have been you for 60 or 70 years, in five minutes.
11light11 wrote: What does God expect of us, in terms of responsibility? If God has witnessed our lifetimes, then he is aware of the many influences which brought us to a place where we could have behaved so 'badly' as to have wound up in some version of 'hell.' Because all such stories are tragic and sad, it's hard to see God judging such a soul for having wound up there. When you hear about the life stories of men such as Ted Bundy, for instance, there is no 'blame' I feel comfortable assigning. Our neighborhoods in the U.S.A. that yield gang members also house individuals whose 'bad behaviors' come from similarly unmysterious origins. Life is so hard, and we struggle immensely -- some more than others. So much 'bad behavior' is a result of complex pain and a divergent developmental process. With any degree of mental illness, it's hard to say a person is 'bad' -- instead, I'm tempted to say that a person committing crime or causing harm to others is under an alternative influence than those who are able to choose 'good' behaviors when they recognize impulses to behave more selfishly.
Its hard for me to know to what extent you may be cut some slack. My own sister was bipolar, yet suicided and had a dreadful time. I do not share what was told me. Its painful. The point that I am not sure you yet see is that God does not judge whatsoever. You cant both judge and love unconditionally, and it seems He has chosen to love. To resolve the problem of errant creations, He created the Law of Attraction, and the Law of Compensation and you simply are where your soul conditions places you. And it places you there for as long as you have that soul condition. Now there is no short way out, no short way to change your fundamental soul condition. Except by receiving Father's Divine Love. That means there are two ways out of poor soul condition. One is changing yourself, on your own, the other is by asking God to work on your soul. As an example, Julius Caesar spent 2040 years in darkness, but once he asked God to change him, it took 17 months to be so changed that he was out of darkness.
11light11 wrote:I can't see God as unable or unwilling to recognize "why" some of these people behave as they do, and unilaterally declare them 'bad.' Even winding up in a version of hell, where like souls are grouped together and the environs are so painful is difficult for me to comprehend. The suffering has been immense, both that which has caused the behaviors but also that which harmed others. And now there is still more suffering. I just wonder about mercy and compassion from the God who witnesses these things. How can one grow and evolve from within the framework of lifelong pain and suffering?
I am sure Father knows exactly why these people behaved as they did. And I expect that everything is very fair, totally fair, and I am ABSOLUTELY sure He does not declare them bad. He still loves each of them exactly as much as those who lived wonderful lives. But there is the issue of Free Will. Father does not make us perfect without us asking, and even that takes a lot of time and a lot of asking. Personally I am totally at ease with the system. Yet I don't know, nor have ever read, how you get "cut slack". Take a sociopath. To what extent is that really Free Will as opposed to busted brain cells? I don't know. But I do know that literally every single one of us here, on this wayward planet is cut a huge amount of slack. Hitler survived death, even if last I heard he was still in darkness. On a Light and Life planet he would not have survived death. But other than those with busted brains, even those who are abused and led astray, each of them would have had a conscience/TA telling them NOT to do what they did. This is a tough planet, and I expect we actually chose to come here, although I don't know that as a fact.

hugs
Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.
~ said Jesus through Glenda Green in "Love without End" ~

User avatar
Sandy
Staff
Posts: 16673
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:51 pm
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 1111
Location: Illawarra District, New South Wales, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hell

Post by Sandy » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:00 am

Hi Geoff and Michele,
Personally I am totally at ease with the system. Yet I don't know, nor have ever read, how you get "cut slack". Take a sociopath. To what extent is that really Free Will as opposed to busted brain cells? I don't know. But I do know that literally every single one of us here, on this wayward planet is cut a huge amount of slack.
I found this transmit earlier dealing with mental aberrations of a sort...

http://board.1111angels.com/viewtopic.p ... rs#p175479
“Morontia World Acclimatization”

and this one...
http://board.1111angels.com/viewtopic.p ... rs#p167513

love,
Sandy
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.

~ Chief Seattle ~

User avatar
Geoff
Site Admin
Posts: 4908
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:15 am
Please type in these numbers: 46373: 46372
Please type in these numbers:91294: 91284
Location: Bayview, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hell

Post by Geoff » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:09 am

Dera Sandy,

Yes thats useful, but does not address what soul damage might, or might not be done by these mental issues. It merely confirms what I already knew, that help is always available, but of course I did not know there were perfectly-created beings masquerading as "mortals". But I have a feeling even midwayers would not be recognised for who they really are.

hugs
Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.
~ said Jesus through Glenda Green in "Love without End" ~

Post Reply