Our Origins

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overmind
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Our Origins

Post by overmind » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:39 am

I thought I would have some fun and disagree with the hype which came with this on my facebook feed. It was a picture of eyes and phenomena within outer space which looked similar, followed by a quote by Neil deGrasse Tyson:

“Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life.

So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe.

We are in the universe and the universe is in us.”


Is it really that inspiring to understand the obvious fact that our physical bodies are made from atoms which populate the universe? Don't most of use make the connection at a young age that we are a part of this universe? People get wide-eyed when they identify themselves with the remains of stars, but this in itself holds no great objective value. When people identify themselves as their bodies, they may feel insignificant and this could certainly alleviate that momentarily by making their bodies seem more important. But is a mere similarity in physiology and origin going to create a form of brotherly love which permeates all of society? Is it going to create social change? I don't recall any empirical evidence suggesting such a thing, and logically speaking, knowing that your atoms came from a star does not inherently make you a better person.

Question #1: How do physical origins impact human values?

Question #2: Why aren't these people contemplating the origin of the stars if their origin in the stars is so important?

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Re: Our Origins

Post by Zachary » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:49 pm

Loved the post. Great thought process involved. I couldn't possibly argue with your username overmind. It seems so fitting to your in depth thinking process...

I'm glad to see that posted on facebook. Personally I think more people need to see this. I feel as if my peers alone have little knowledge as to how they're connected to the universe. Where I live, everyday is a great example how materialism dominates the minds of my brother's and sister's and even me. To me it's as if the majority of the world cannot see how things are connected. By showing them their physical origin also exists in the stars might open the doorway for them to see more. I say it might help them, but idk. I can easily see how if you view it in a more physical manner it doesn't hold much value at all. I still have friends who are atheist and I personally think they need to see things like that in order to expand their thoughts more. Since we're all personal beings I guess to me it depends on the individual reading the article... where they're at in life, their current mood, their personal experiences that week....


QUESTION # 1: (personal opinion) - To me physical origins impact human values only on a personal level. How that person was raised, what that person experienced in their existence, how the people around them influence them. I guess I think everything personal in your life dictates your values. Which is scary, because I live in a part of the world where materialism runs high!

QUESTION # 2: (personal opinion) - To me that is a genius question. If I had to guess the answer, it would be because materialism runs high.... but I know materialism doesn't run high everywhere. So I suppose it's just my personal opinion.
"Why try to use the wrong tool for the job when you have just the perfect tool. If only you would pick it up and learn to use it." -TA

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Re: Our Origins

Post by overmind » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:57 pm

I think this and many other things can work as good stepping stones for reaching higher planes of thought. Since it is not something I would find helpful, I cannot fathom how others find it particularly deep. I figure that it is necessary for others to understand how we are at least connected in a physical way, but that can only go so far. The bible has long said that we all come from dust, and to dust we shall return, yet this in itself has not cured society of inequality. So I find when people view such an idea as this to be particularly deep, they will create a thinking barrier where this particular line of thought becomes the greatest form of philosophy or meaning they can take in. Essentially, I fear the possibility of people thinking inside a self-defined or community-defined box at all times. I'm not against creating foundations, but when the box is so small, some sort of improvement needs to be made.

Humans do not directly come from stars, we come from this planet. If people are going to skip steps and ignore the forming of this planet, then they might as well go all the way back to the First Cause.

Regarding the first question, I would need to create a study involving inhabitants of other planets. Our place among the stars has certainly had a cultural impact. We would not have the same Roman gods if we were located in a different solar system. The big issue is all of the variables involved. We know that the celestial personalities and divine spirits have a much bigger impact on planetary affairs for worlds not impacted by the Lucifer Rebellion. This impact is the main driving force in cultural and societal evolution, so between such worlds the celestial environment may create almost no difference in human values (assuming that the planet does not face some unique difficulty because of its location). On such worlds, spiritual origins are known to be from God, so purely physical origins may not play any great role. Since we live in a place of utter confusion, greater importance is placed on the physical universe. Some give merit to astrology, some become pantheists, and others view the physical universe to be the only thing worth understanding. In the end, the influence of such origins is going to be personal, and the results of such personal understanding spanning across many individuals is reflected in each society to some degree. However, I cannot currently measure such a thing accurately, so I have to look at such impacts at the individual level. As thoughts and actions are recorded on high, I find it would be much easier to find trends, correlations and causation in the next world. If I find it interesting enough in the future to create a report on the impact of planetary placement on culture, values and society in general, then look forward to its creation. However, I'm sure such things are already known elsewhere and such work would not be necessary.

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Re: Our Origins

Post by overmind » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:49 pm

I believe one of the big problems is that when people understand that they are connected with the universe - or are the universe - in a purely physical sense, this seems to be something of great value. I believe the reason it seems as such is because this is the beginning of understanding each one's connection to the Whole in a more spiritual sense. If it is from spirit where higher values are found, then it is clearly so that understanding our spiritual relationship with God and each other holds far more value than where our atoms or molecules came from.

Question: Do all objective facts hold objective value?

I would assume that such objective value would be valuable to all. If not, it would appear to be subjective. If God knows all, do all these things hold value? Would such things only hold value to God? If God holds the most insignificant of facts to be of some value, but others do not, does this mean God's values are subjective or are God's values still absolute truth and absolutely important (objective values)?

Let me phrase this in a different way. God simply knows the number of hairs on our head. Is such a fact important in any way or is this an objective fact with no value. Is all of God's knowledge important, and if so, is it important simply because it is God's? If it is not important, why would such things be known?

The answer to this last question would lie in God's all-knowingness. To a finite creature, unimportant facts are usually discarded or not worthy of being recorded in the first place. This logic may be incorrectly projected onto God to form a philosophical question which seems rather silly at a higher level of understanding. God's values or traits may be projected some degree onto us, but it cannot work the other way around. Picture God as a puzzle comprised of a trillion pieces (or the highest number you can reasonably imagine) and the consciousness of every human on this planet and all things revealed therein representing one puzzle piece. It is easy to see from the outside where this piece fits and what value it creates, but there is no way a person only holding this one piece could know what the entire picture may be. If you want this example to be more realistic, make all the experiences of each person a puzzle piece, but make the puzzle pieces nearly infinite with new ones being created every second. This puzzle you are now imagining is called "God the Supreme", which is part of a seven puzzle set.

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Re: Our Origins

Post by Welles » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:17 am

overmind,

I'd say you answered your own questions most eloquently. I thought Zachary had two good perspectives. So I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent.

I think that the idea of our bodies being star-stuff is a mystical sort of factoid. Bear with me, please. This little excursion won't take long.

I'm going to suggest that the solar plexus is the seat of material emotions. From that center we reach out with tendrils of energy and attach ourselves to comforting aspects of physical reality. We also create rigid armoring to protect us from our fears but that isn't germane in this brief ramble. As an aside, when our whole emotional centers are increasingly busy with attachments and fears we can't actually use them. When our emotional centers aren't all boggled up we can use them to feel the qualities and attributes of our material universe. It is a vital skill in acts of creation where one must feel balances, harmonies and resonances. Hey what do you know another aside! :roll:

Anyway the attempt to give ourselves a sense of being when our physical universe is the limit of our horizons is supported by concepts such as the bodies/star-stuff thesis. It sounds good, likely to be true even, and provides an expanded sense of self albeit still comfortably rooted in material reality. This process is always part of early spiritual evolution. It is a classic example of mysticism. That is the attempt to gain a spiritual perspective with materially oriented centers of perception. We all start our spiritual journeys with mysticism. In time those ideas will disappear from our emotional event horizons as they are replaced by the next new mystical thought and, yet again, in time real spiritual experience will supplant them entirely.

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Re: Our Origins

Post by overmind » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:26 am

I think that's a great point, I never framed it within my mind to be a form of early mysticism.

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Re: Our Origins

Post by Sandy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:12 am

Okay I am going to 'dumb down" this conversation with a simple thought... It is about our bodies being a part of the fabric of stars....well, I guess what thrills me and stirs my soul isn't so much my atoms once belonging to a star so much as my atoms or what ever they were in the beginning of formation were emitted from Paradise! :bana:
Urantia book Paper 11. The Eternal Isle Of Paradise
(127.5) 11:9.7 Paradise is the universal headquarters of all personality activities and the source-center of all force-space and energy manifestations. Everything which has been, now is, or is yet to be, has come, now comes, or will come forth from this central abiding place of the eternal Gods. Paradise is the center of all creation, the source of all energies, and the place of primal origin of all personalities.
It isn't the physical atoms that lights my fire but knowing that I am made up of "Creator's stuff"... for me, this unites me physical, emotionally, spiritually,creatively, musically,(well, maybe not musically...not me, anyway :roll: ;) ) and helps me harmonize and find balance... sort of what you just mentioned Welles.
When our emotional centers aren't all boggled up we can use them to feel the qualities and attributes of our material universe. It is a vital skill in acts of creation where one must feel balances, harmonies and resonances.
For some reason even though the physical abode of Paradise is further away then I can possibly imagine...remembering this connection and by imagining the energy/light /love that continuously leaves the abode of God every millisecond gives me comfort and a sense of belonging and a resonance (kinship) with all things. For instance, this has helped me feel the energies of my crystals as I seek the Creator's loving energy within them too... does that make any sense? The entire Universe is a great big gigantic reflection of the Divine thought...I can't imagine anything created being mediocre or without value and purpose. I must admit...the older I get the more I value each and every hair on my head whether the Source does or not ;) :lol: but as a mother who has a baby book with my precious children's hair carefully tucked away there...I can see our Divine parent probably values those hairs every bit if not more than I do my own children... if only for their benefit to other universe organisms who live and prosper from their material structure.
Okay I'm off to make George's supper. I love listening to you guys discuss these things and all the luscious details even if my brain begins smoking trying to understand the complex thought.
Hugs,
Sandy
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.

~ Chief Seattle ~

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Re: Our Origins

Post by Zachary » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:32 pm

Learned a lot from that. Thanks for the post and knowledge people
"Why try to use the wrong tool for the job when you have just the perfect tool. If only you would pick it up and learn to use it." -TA

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