The Definition of Immortality?

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The Definition of Immortality?

Post by overmind » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:56 am

I ran into a question today that I could not immediately answer: "Are angels immortal?" The UB mostly uses this word to describe the future of the human soul (immortality after fusion). Although it is clear that any Daughter of the Infinite Spirit isn't going to die if it possess value, does that really make them immortal? We know that if they rebel, eventually they won't survive. I believe they also require the support of the energy circuits of the planet they are on (although I'm not sure how or when transport seraphim "charge their batteries"). Maybe they are supported by Nebadonia 24/7. What do you call something that will probably last for eternity, but is not immortal?

I'm just wondering if the Urantia Book ever defines true immortality. There is a difference between a personality never dying and one being unable to die. But then, wouldn't it still be possible for God to destroy all that is considered immortal except for itself? As impossible as it seems, what if there was a Finaliter that rebelled with Lucifer? Though the obvious question would be how a God-fused mortal could rebel (how could a part of God go against God's will?), the other would be how it would be uncreated in time.

I may be opening a big can of worms here, but I find the philosophy behind immortality interesting. As absolute as the word seems, there may be different levels of it.

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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by 11light11 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:14 pm

Hi Overmind,

I appreciate your ideas with this question about immorality. It seems to be too giant a concept to truly understand it down through its depths . . .kind of like when you're a little kid, and you're told that "God has no beginning and no end." I could conceive of Him never ending . . . here he is existing, and He'll just go on existing. That part didn't make my brain hurt. But the idea of Him never having begun?! There was no way to wrap my mind around that.

With your question about Angels, I wonder: They do have a beginning, right? . . . I remember reading the ancient, esoteric creation story of early Judaism . . the thought was that God was infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient . . and He was all there was. One day He felt full to bursting with his desire to share His love with others, and so He threw Himself out in infinite directions . . creating the earliest aspects of the Universe, which eventually settled into what we see in the skies today. And so much longer things settled to the point where life was able to inhabit some of His creation, and at last He was able to share His love.

It interested me so much, reading that story, because I realized that it was nearly identical to our idea of the Big Bang . . .and it's a 5,000 year old (or more!) story.

But how did God come to exist, to begin with, and how did He come to have always been there, always?! "No beginning, and no end." Because I have never been able to wrap my mind around that idea, I don't know how far I could get with your questions about Angels, either, but I love thinking about this. I see what you mean: If an angel can go to destruction, like if he rebelled, then he has the opportunity to cease to exist; in which case he would not be immortal. So in that case do the 'non-rebelling' angels truly have immortality, if there's a catch, loophole or clause that might lead to their destruction? It's a tough question.

If we die, and our souls live on . . .that must mean we're all immortal, doesn't it? What is the story supposed to be about who and what we were, before we came into existence, as souls? There was a moment in time where we began? Is there a moment in time where we end? I know some traditions say we get to a point where we melt and merge with God, losing all ego ideal and in some sense ceasing to exist, you could say . . . at least our self-ness or individuality would melt, even if our soul-energy goes on existing. The "me" or the "I" would disappear I guess.

I don't think I even came close to addressing your question but wanted to let you know how much it made me think! :love

With love, Michele :loves

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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by sammy » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:48 pm

Makes my head spin! (the eternal thing)

I can recall laying in bed as a child thinking "God created us, but who created God"...and I would get this weird hollow/stressed feeling and my brain would go completely blank.

LOL! No answers here! :mrgreen:

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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by overmind » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:52 pm

Sandy and I discussed this a little in the other thread I made, but that had more to do with the possibility of rebellion instead of immortality. It's funny how the celestials throw around the term "immortal soul", yet admit that we are not truly immortal until fusion with the Thought Adjuster. It would make sense that we would not have guaranteed eternal life unless fused with the source of all life. However, the dissolution and recycling of personality is what death really is. When there is no sense of self, no form of individuality, then the personality is not present. For humans though, the experiences will always survive in the Thought Adjuster, and this will contribute to the personality of its eventual fusion partner (unless it becomes personalized itself). This is why I think the term immortal soul is used. The memories held within the soul are eternal, no matter what happens to it.

In the end though, it all comes down to a simple equation: spiritual value = existence. For Ascending Sons, I believe this becomes absolute. If someone is ascending to Paradise or at least makes the decision to in the future, to the Father they are already eternal. It gets more confusing with angels though. If an angel does important tasks and creates value in the universe for 10,000 years, but then rebels and is destroyed in the next 500,000, how does the Trinity view their existence in eternity? Would it seem like they were always dead or would that only be the case after they made their final decision?

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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by sammy » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:38 pm

For humans though, the experiences will always survive in the Thought Adjuster, and this will contribute to the personality of its eventual fusion partner (unless it becomes personalized itself). This is why I think the term immortal soul is used. The memories held within the soul are eternal, no matter what happens to it.
Overmind....that is such a comforting thought...belief!

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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by 11light11 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:22 pm

You know . . . with your example, Overmind, of an angel who does important tasks and creates value for 10,000 years, but then rebels and is destroyed in the next 500,000 years . . I guess I feel like, that can't happen. Whatever became of his good works? I guess I can't conceive of a God who would destroy an angel, no matter what he ever did, if he'd been going on creating value for 10,000 years . . or for that matter I never liked the idea of hell for the same reason: Because that's not my God. A God who'd let someone endure torture for all of eternity? No matter how they had 'sinned' in whichever lifetime . . . that's just not my God. I know there are stories of angels gone astray and God getting angry with them and so on . . . but I never really could reconcile the idea of "God" and "anger" at the same time. It seems like when we get angry there was some empathy lacking -- or we lack the higher perspective. Or we feel wronged in some way (whether justified or not) and our ego was wounded. So if you're free of the ego where would the anger arise? We've all had those weird moments where we would usually feel angry but we suddenly and shockingly feel compassion for the other person. And we're just humans! If you're omnipotent could you really fall to anger?If you understood truly why the person/angel behaved that way, would you feel angry about it? I struggle with this . . . I wonder about the traditions that talk about a vengeful God. Is he really superior to a human being?

I guess what makes sense to me is the idea that God would always love and cherish each one of us . . from the angels to the humans and everything in between. Maybe I just prefer to think of God that way but that makes more sense to me . . .
For humans though, the experiences will always survive in the Thought Adjuster, and this will contribute to the personality of its eventual fusion partner (unless it becomes personalized itself). This is why I think the term immortal soul is used. The memories held within the soul are eternal, no matter what happens to it.


Overmind....that is such a comforting thought...belief!
It's comforting to me too Sammy! :love
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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by overmind » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:14 am

Destroy probably isn't the best word to use since the Urantia text used the word uncreate. But it could be something as simple as letting something become unreal. If the characteristics of something in the universe borders the unreal, it cannot be sustained forever. A personality will have to follow God at some point. If an angel (or Lucifer for example) is so far gone that they can never align with the will of God and can only do harm, sustaining them forever doesn't seem efficient. It might be easier to understand this if you think of death as a constant form of sleep. If God were to recreate Lucifer (or wake him up) with all of his memories intact, he would still hold the same views and rebel again. Even if he started over from scratch with no memories, his distinct point of view may cause him to rebel a few million years down the line.

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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by Sandy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:05 am

If I am remembering right, it seems those who rebelled, angels and "big guys alike, were given the opportunity to accept rehabilitation or to not exist. They choose when it is finally determined after a lengthy discussion akin to something like our courts but more advanced and of course, fair. Many like the rebel Midwayers chose rehabilitation but there were many too who chose not to exist. I always wondered if in some way they became a part of the experiential energies of the Supreme, but as Overmind was saying, lost their individual personality memories etc...everything that made them real.

I believe God created one of the highest forms of Grand universe beings called the Ancient of Days to carry out this kind of judgements if needed. The entire universe is organised perfectly from the patterns in "the mind of God". So every possible need it covered by beings who are vastly qualified to perform the jobs as are entailed. I found it interesting to read this short section concerning the Ancient of Days...found here...according to the Ubook... http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-sta ... sonalities
3. The Ancients of Days (209.3) 18:3.1

Just think in the entire universe The Creator of us all made only 21 one of these awesomely powerful beings... 8) and we will get to view them some day. Well hopefully not as they are finding judgement on something we've done... :shock:

This is very comforting... http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-sta ... -rebellion
Page 618 Problems of the Lucifer Rebellion
6. The Triumph of Love (618.4) 54:6.1
it seems in all ways our universes of time Space are dominated by Mercy and Love.
:loves
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Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.

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Re: The Definition of Immortality?

Post by 11light11 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:50 pm

Beautiful!!! Thanks Overmind, and thanks Sandy! I enjoyed your responses. :kiss: :love :loves

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