Afterlife question

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happyrain
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Afterlife question

Post by happyrain » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:43 am

I just read the message about a soul that parts from the flesh. This thought has crossed my mind plenty of times. I believe Spirit has answered my uncertainty towards death. So, why am I posting this? Not sure... I'm curious what the UB says about a soul that has chosen annihilation. Sometimes I think I face dissemination/annihilation. Does that mean we can still have a good life and a tranquil passing? Is this the Ego scared of death? Or is this a legitimate thing in the UB- a soul no more?

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by Amigoo » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:24 am

I suspect that it's nearly impossible for a human, especially on this still-developing planet, to choose annihilation. Apparently, life must be lived on the mansion worlds at least long enough to know how to make a truly informed decision.

The following UB sentence states that the soul makes "the final decision", but only after mortal death ... or if delgated such authority while the mortal is living. Nonetheless, the developing soul still makes the decision about annihilation - not the human. In other words, the soul is the continuing entity that decides ... and not before mortal death.

"Neither does the soul make final decisions until death or translation divorces it from material association with the mortal mind ... except when and as this material mind delegates such authority freely and willingly to such a morontia soul of associated function." (111:3.2)

Rod :)

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by happyrain » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:50 am

thank you Rod I really appreciate you taking the time.

and now I'm left wondering, what if that soul has the experience of 'fallen angel?'

but the reality is, whether annihilation is fated or not, i think it is possible to experience heaven on earth and a peaceful exit.

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by Amigoo » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:15 pm

To truly experience "heaven on earth" suggests that annihilation will not be chosen.

Rod :)

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by happyrain » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:08 pm

Thanks Rod, and it isn't an exaggeration to say I've experienced heaven on earth before. That's comforting. I suppose, there will always be a dichotomy identifying transitory 3D reality and soul/happiness. Neither are wrong. Knowing there is a difference is humbling and encouraging enough. I am learning how to have the right attitude even as a temporary form dictated by the "rules" of our matrix. And if I ever chose annihilation, I will not abandon my Heart in this life. On the contrary, I am learning to guide it with creature-endowment.

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by Sandy » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:12 am

Hi Eric,

I apologise for my slow response to this question. I am a little late for the party and it seems you are in a good place, but I hope you will allow me to post something I found in the Urantia book that might be helpful for all of us to read who have ever felt unworthy to experience the benevolence of God. You are probably not alone in thoughts of this nature as we all wonder sometimes about our worthiness to progress after death. Yet, is it truly about worthiness here or is it about pure and unconditional love?

So in looking for your answers in the Urantia Book... I found this passage that I hope we will find helpful with this very important question you have posed. It is a little long but worth a read.

This section of the Urantia book is speaking about the Justice in regards to the rebels of the Lucifer Rebellion but the Mercy applies to all of us as much loved children of God.

On page 615 Paper 54 Problems of the Lucifer Rebellion
beginning with Part 3 The Time Lag of Justice

3. The Time Lag of Justice
54:3.1 (615.3) The moral will creatures of the evolutionary worlds are always bothered with the unthinking question as to why the all-wise Creators permit evil and sin. They fail to comprehend that both are inevitable if the creature is to be truly free. The free will of evolving man or exquisite angel is not a mere philosophic concept, a symbolic ideal. Man’s ability to choose good or evil is a universe reality. This liberty to choose for oneself is an endowment of the Supreme Rulers, and they will not permit any being or group of beings to deprive a single personality in the wide universe of this divinely bestowed liberty—not even to satisfy such misguided and ignorant beings in the enjoyment of this misnamed personal liberty.
54:3.2 (615.4) Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty—the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil—a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual’s universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.
54:3.3 (615.5) But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.
4. The Mercy Time Lag
54:4.1 (615.6) Another problem somewhat difficult of explanation in the constellation of Norlatiadek pertains to the reasons for permitting Lucifer, Satan, and the fallen princes to work mischief so long before being apprehended, interned, and adjudicated.
54:4.2 (616.1) Parents, those who have borne and reared children, are better able to understand why Michael, a Creator-father, might be slow to condemn and destroy his own Sons. Jesus’ story of the prodigal son well illustrates how a loving father can long wait for the repentance of an erring child.
54:4.3 (616.2) The very fact that an evil-doing creature can actually choose to do wrong—commit sin—establishes the fact of free-willness and fully justifies any length delay in the execution of justice provided the extended mercy might conduce to repentance and rehabilitation.
54:4.4 (616.3) Most of the liberties which Lucifer sought he already had; others he was to receive in the future. All these precious endowments were lost by giving way to impatience and yielding to a desire to possess what one craves now and to possess it in defiance of all obligation to respect the rights and liberties of all other beings composing the universe of universes. Ethical obligations are innate, divine, and universal.
54:4.5 (616.4) There are many reasons known to us why the Supreme Rulers did not immediately destroy or intern the leaders of the Lucifer rebellion. There are no doubt still other and possibly better reasons unknown to us. The mercy features of this delay in the execution of justice were extended personally by Michael of Nebadon. Except for the affection of this Creator-father for his erring Sons, the supreme justice of the superuniverse would have acted. If such an episode as the Lucifer rebellion had occurred in Nebadon while Michael was incarnated on Urantia, the instigators of such evil might have been instantly and absolutely annihilated.
54:4.6 (616.5) Supreme justice can act instantly when not restrained by divine mercy. But the ministry of mercy to the children of time and space always provides for this time lag, this saving interval between seedtime and harvest. If the seed sowing is good, this interval provides for the testing and upbuilding of character; if the seed sowing is evil, this merciful delay provides time for repentance and rectification. This time delay in the adjudication and execution of evildoers is inherent in the mercy ministry of the seven superuniverses. This restraint of justice by mercy proves that God is love, and that such a God of love dominates the universes and in mercy controls the fate and judgment of all his creatures.
54:4.7 (616.6) The mercy delays of time are by the mandate of the free will of the Creators. There is good to be derived in the universe from this technique of patience in dealing with sinful rebels. While it is all too true that good cannot come of evil to the one who contemplates and performs evil, it is equally true that all things (including evil, potential and manifest) work together for good to all beings who know God, love to do his will, and are ascending Paradiseward according to his eternal plan and divine purpose.
54:4.8 (616.7) But these mercy delays are not interminable. Notwithstanding the long delay (as time is reckoned on Urantia) in adjudicating the Lucifer rebellion, we may record that, during the time of effecting this revelation, the first hearing in the pending case of Gabriel vs. Lucifer was held on Uversa, and soon thereafter there issued the mandate of the Ancients of Days directing that Satan be henceforth confined to the prison world with Lucifer. This ends the ability of Satan to pay further visits to any of the fallen worlds of Satania. Justice in a mercy-dominated universe may be slow, but it is certain.
5. The Wisdom of Delay
54:5.1 (617.1) Of the many reasons known to me as to why Lucifer and his confederates were not sooner interned or adjudicated, I am permitted to recite the following:
54:5.2 (617.2) 1. Mercy requires that every wrongdoer have sufficient time in which to formulate a deliberate and fully chosen attitude regarding his evil thoughts and sinful acts.
54:5.3 (617.3) 2. Supreme justice is dominated by a Father’s love; therefore will justice never destroy that which mercy can save. Time to accept salvation is vouchsafed every evildoer.
54:5.4 (617.4) 3. No affectionate father is ever precipitate in visiting punishment upon an erring member of his family. Patience cannot function independently of time.
54:5.5 (617.5) 4. While wrongdoing is always deleterious to a family, wisdom and love admonish the upright children to bear with an erring brother during the time granted by the affectionate father in which the sinner may see the error of his way and embrace salvation.
54:5.6 (617.6) 5. Regardless of Michael’s attitude toward Lucifer, notwithstanding his being Lucifer’s Creator-father, it was not in the province of the Creator Son to exercise summary jurisdiction over the apostate System Sovereign because he had not then completed his bestowal career, thereby attaining unqualified sovereignty of Nebadon.
54:5.7 (617.7) 6. The Ancients of Days could have immediately annihilated these rebels, but they seldom execute wrongdoers without a full hearing. In this instance they refused to overrule the Michael decisions.
54:5.8 (617.8) 7. It is evident that Immanuel counseled Michael to remain aloof from the rebels and allow rebellion to pursue a natural course of self-obliteration. And the wisdom of the Union of Days is the time reflection of the united wisdom of the Paradise Trinity.
54:5.9 (617.9) 8. The Faithful of Days on Edentia advised the Constellation Fathers to allow the rebels free course to the end that all sympathy for these evildoers should be the sooner uprooted in the hearts of every present and future citizen of Norlatiadek—every mortal, morontia, or spirit creature.
54:5.10 (617.10) 9. On Jerusem the personal representative of the Supreme Executive of Orvonton counseled Gabriel to foster full opportunity for every living creature to mature a deliberate choice in those matters involved in the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The issues of rebellion having been raised, the Paradise emergency adviser of Gabriel portrayed that, if such full and free opportunity were not given all Norlatiadek creatures, then would the Paradise quarantine against all such possible halfhearted or doubt-stricken creatures be extended in self-protection against the entire constellation. To keep open the Paradise doors of ascension to the beings of Norlatiadek, it was necessary to provide for the full development of rebellion and to insure the complete determination of attitude on the part of all beings in any way concerned therewith.
54:5.11 (617.11) 10. The Divine Minister of Salvington issued as her third independent proclamation a mandate directing that nothing be done to half cure, cowardly suppress, or otherwise hide the hideous visage of rebels and rebellion. The angelic hosts were directed to work for full disclosure and unlimited opportunity for sin-expression as the quickest technique of achieving the perfect and final cure of the plague of evil and sin.
54:5.12 (618.1) 11. An emergency council of ex-mortals consisting of Mighty Messengers, glorified mortals who had had personal experience with like situations, together with their colleagues, was organized on Jerusem. They advised Gabriel that at least three times the number of beings would be led astray if arbitrary or summary methods of suppression were attempted. The entire Uversa corps of counselors concurred in advising Gabriel to permit the rebellion to take its full and natural course, even if it should require a million years to wind up the consequences.
54:5.13 (618.2) 12. Time, even in a universe of time, is relative: If a Urantia mortal of average length of life should commit a crime which precipitated world-wide pandemonium, and if he were apprehended, tried, and executed within two or three days of the commission of the crime, would it seem a long time to you? And yet that would be nearer a comparison with the length of Lucifer’s life even if his adjudication, now begun, should not be completed for a hundred thousand Urantia years. The relative lapse of time from the viewpoint of Uversa, where the litigation is pending, could be indicated by saying that the crime of Lucifer was being brought to trial within two and a half seconds of its commission. From the Paradise viewpoint the adjudication is simultaneous with the enactment.
54:5.14 (618.3) There are an equal number of reasons for not arbitrarily stopping the Lucifer rebellion which would be partially comprehensible to you, but which I am not permitted to narrate. I may inform you that on Uversa we teach forty-eight reasons for permitting evil to run the full course of its own moral bankruptcy and spiritual extinction. I doubt not that there are just as many additional reasons not known to me.
6. The Triumph of Love
54:6.1 (618.4) Whatever the difficulties evolutionary mortals may encounter in their efforts to understand the Lucifer rebellion, it should be clear to all reflective thinkers that the technique of dealing with the rebels is a vindication of divine love. The loving mercy extended to the rebels does seem to have involved many innocent beings in trials and tribulations, but all these distraught personalities may securely depend upon the all-wise Judges to adjudicate their destinies in mercy as well as justice.
54:6.2 (618.5) In all their dealings with intelligent beings, both the Creator Son and his Paradise Father are love dominated. It is impossible to comprehend many phases of the attitude of the universe rulers toward rebels and rebellion—sin and sinners—unless it be remembered that God as a Father takes precedence over all other phases of Deity manifestation in all the dealings of divinity with humanity. It should also be recalled that the Paradise Creator Sons are all mercy motivated.
54:6.3 (618.6) If an affectionate father of a large family chooses to show mercy to one of his children guilty of grievous wrongdoing, it may well be that the extension of mercy to this misbehaving child will work a temporary hardship upon all the other and well-behaved children. Such eventualities are inevitable; such a risk is inseparable from the reality situation of having a loving parent and of being a member of a family group. Each member of a family profits by the righteous conduct of every other member; likewise must each member suffer the immediate time-consequences of the misconduct of every other member. Families, groups, nations, races, worlds, systems, constellations, and universes are relationships of association which possess individuality; and therefore does every member of any such group, large or small, reap the benefits and suffer the consequences of the rightdoing and the wrongdoing of all other members of the group concerned.
54:6.4 (619.1) But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere—no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors—you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment.
54:6.5 (619.2) And there is compensation for these trials, delays, and disappointments which invariably accompany the sin of rebellion. Of the many valuable repercussions of the Lucifer rebellion which might be named, I will only call attention to the enhanced careers of those mortal ascenders, the Jerusem citizens, who, by withstanding the sophistries of sin, placed themselves in line for becoming future Mighty Messengers, fellows of my own order. Every being who stood the test of that evil episode thereby immediately advanced his administrative status and enhanced his spiritual worth.
54:6.6 (619.3) At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer’s folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.
54:6.7 (619.4) But such an extraordinary and beneficent harvest of wrongdoing could only be brought about by the wise, divine, and merciful attitude of all of Lucifer’s superiors, extending from the Constellation Fathers on Edentia to the Universal Father on Paradise. The passing of time has enhanced the consequential good to be derived from the Lucifer folly; and since the evil to be penalized was quite fully developed within a comparatively short time, it is apparent that the all-wise and farseeing universe rulers would be certain to extend the time in which to reap increasingly beneficial results. Regardless of the many additional reasons for delaying the apprehension and adjudication of the Satania rebels, this one gain would have been enough to explain why these sinners were not sooner interned, and why they have not been adjudicated and destroyed.
54:6.8 (619.5) Shortsighted and time-bound mortal minds should be slow to criticize the time delays of the farseeing and all-wise administrators of universe affairs.
54:6.9 (620.1) One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.
54:6.10 (620.2) As you ascend in the survival experience, you will broaden your universe concepts and extend your horizon of meanings and values; and thus will you be able the better to understand why such beings as Lucifer and Satan are permitted to continue in rebellion. You will also better comprehend how ultimate (if not immediate) good can be derived from time-limited evil. After you attain Paradise, you will really be enlightened and comforted when you listen to the superaphic philosophers discuss and explain these profound problems of universe adjustment. But even then, I doubt that you will be fully satisfied in your own minds. At least I was not even when I had thus attained the acme of universe philosophy. I did not achieve a full comprehension of these complexities until after I had been assigned to administrative duties in the superuniverse, where by actual experience I have acquired conceptual capacity adequate for the comprehension of such many-sided problems in cosmic equity and spiritual philosophy. As you ascend Paradiseward, you will increasingly learn that many problematic features of universe administration can only be comprehended subsequent to the acquirement of increased experiential capacity and to the achievement of enhanced spiritual insight. Cosmic wisdom is essential to the understanding of cosmic situations.
54:6.11 (620.3) [Presented by a Mighty Messenger of experiential survival in the first system rebellion in the universes of time now attached to the superuniverse government of Orvonton and acting in this matter by request of Gabriel of Salvington.]
“And at the end of the day, my friends, even if it is a long day, and this is a long day, love wins. Always.”
~Governor Andrew Cuomo~

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by happyrain » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:29 am

that was very interesting sandy, thank you so much.

i'm not sure i look at it as a thing of worth, but now am wondering if perhaps it was the free-will choice of a soul prior to its mortal incarnation to have chosen- or come to a mutual and perhaps loving agreement that annihilation would be a part of its experience- after serving its sentence in time/space.

i'm not saying this is my reality. :roll just thinking :hithere

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by Amigoo » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:59 am

:study: "4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to 'do the will of the Father in heaven,' so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension." (0:5.10)

:idea: This paragraph indicates that, whereas the Thought Adjuster ("indwelling spirit") may have had previous incarnations in attachment-service to a mortal, the human soul is born on this planet. Thus, there is no soul to choose experience before mortal birth. Also, the UB explains "reincarnation" as a continuing soul experience but only as an advancing spirit being - not a return to a previous mortal-level existence.

Rod :)

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Re: Afterlife question

Post by lethaniel » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:13 am

Hello everyone!

It seems like I'm prying into every forum topic, but I can assure you that it is not my intention. Nor can I say I'm a master in any subjects, in fact I'm still quite new and learning lots of stuff, and even if I master anything, I will always be a student trying to learn new things. It is just that certain topics drag me around here (I wonder why...).

The thought also crossed my mind too Eric. I know there is a lot in the UB that can reference actual mercy, for those who are against the Father's Will. In the Celestial Message posts there some messages where a few might choose annihilation over eternal life, by several reasons: too long of career, not feeling like it, too much effort and other several reasons, even if they have a morontia body.

A knowledgeable 'fallen' angel can choose to do evil. It is a free will prerogative, and actual way anyone that exist in this universe, can choose. Pride can turn blind anyone, but let it be said, that not to the point of not being able to see what the faults were. It is like a mirror of truth where you can see the faults that made you go stray, but you must actually be convinced that you made a mistake and then the choice will be made after extending mercy (just like Sandy already pointed out). In the UB 156:5.16 and 156:5.17, are very interesting parts of the Tyre teaching.

The whole section addresses the answers to the questions of what if I'm just no good, or if I fail at everything that it is thrown at me? Even do or say won't get me to the point of needed growth to survive. On a limited material mind these questions, without our Father's guide will be very hard to answer on human willpower alone. So we are limited, we even might have a calm life, but like Rod says, we are not capable of choosing annihilation on this plane of existence, because we just don't have the tools nor the brain/mind to take that path.

Now onto that other thing that 'could' actually annihilate a person. On the 140:5.8, they talk about, the hunger of righteousness, which can disappear if you prolong fasting (you will no longer feel the need of that hunger, physically or spiritual). You could also say, that if you fuel your soul with the right things (saying right is very personal to each of us), your soul will be fed, and will bear the fruits of the spirit in the hereafter. But if a person is selfish, self centered, does "no good", and not even think of the afterlife, well there will be a very light soul with very few everlasting experiences to carry on in the everlasting God's Plan/Project. We are indeed, all called by a small door, but all of us can actually enter if we choose to.

A person who made the 'worst' choices might be saved, but it will not have it easy on the Morontia worlds, because they always say 'if only I had known, ... ', and they will try to carry on a not well fed soul. But these are just a few, with very thin souls that might endanger their soul's survival in God's Plan. Even if they don't make it to the Morontia Worlds, which I believe it is hard or impossible to do, due to every human being of normal mind having a T.A., their experiences will be collected (after some serious cleaning) to be part of the Supreme, if they are to be claimed to be so. You can check in any case that 147:5:6 where Jesus tells Peter:
And I (Jesus) declare to all of you that the Father has opened the doors of the heavenly kingdom to all who have the faith to enter, and no man or association of men can close those doors even to the most humble soul or supposedly most flagrant sinner on earth if such sincerely seek an entrance.”
So what we usually call bad persons, might be just brothers/sisters who don't know what they are doing... so mercy will be extended always to even further than what our current imagination can be capable of... Love is always the answer, no matter what is the question, but they might be missing out and survive at first with very thin souls, which, after getting a complete perspective of eternal life, they can make such call of if they willingly want to continue or not, as long even if it was just for a second, to think about what would be next after this life, it can make such a good impact.


Cheers!
--
Oscar E. :hithere

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