Intelligence behind the universe

[RunningScroll]

Been in a discussion with an atheist, and thought that this response to her was strong, Kind regards, Dylan:

One needs to debate whether incremental random chance is enough to explain the myriad of rich phenomena observed. Are long periods of time sufficient to produce what is observed? (I am not one who believes the universe has been around for a few thousand years) Or is it possible that long periods of time + intelligence is required?, that's where I lean. You are here applying your own atheism of the gaps argument of randomness + sufficient time, reflecting your own bias. I would also ask you to unpack your own phrase "a universe figuring itself out". You need a WHO or at minimum a mind to do any figuring, otherwise it needs to be described as a universe "building itself", and has nothing to do with intelligence. A purely physical universe, could have no awareness of itself, and any apparent awareness would have to be described as a "pure illusion", there is no room for WHOs in this universe, and yet humans exist as exquisite WHOs. Therefore WHOs i.e. intelligence is a universe prerequisite.

[happyrain]

Hey Dylan!

I saw your name appear in another post the other day and meant to comment. Just want to say it's nice to see you on the forums again!

I hope all is well. I hope the relationship between you and your friend is a harmonious one.

[Sandy]

Hi Dylan,

It's great to see you! Your words sounds strong to me...I'm convinced... .

xxSandy

[RunningScroll]

Nice to hear from you both!

[Starwalker]

That is a strong argument indeed. I have had my share of conversations with atheists too, but I’ve stopped debating the existence of God. The last time I reached out to an atheist my main message was that Jesus still loves you even if you don’t return the affection. I think that is what they really need to hear. I often find that their criticisms of faith are founded in some regards since they are usually a rebuttal of outdated belief systems. Sadly, their search often ends there. I find that there is very little you can do to sway the mind of someone who has turned against God to the point of denying His existence. Though someday I believe humanity is destined to discover that there is nothing that can take the place of God in human society. Though we are likely going to have to learn this the hard way.

The God in me salutes the God in you,
Jonathan

[Sandy]

Hello Dylan and Jonathan,

I've been missing quite a bit the past couple months with the move and wanted to say hello to both of you. When it seems words don't have any effect maybe we can just let our love do the talking, eh? You guys are awesome!


xxSandy

[Amigoo]

The TAOS theory of male/female pairing

Tension-Attraction Of Sex within moments of unfathomable chaos,
oft resolving in unfathomable bliss during aging of the relationship.

"Say what?!" Mysterious dream instruction; most forgotten.

First guess: This TAOS chaos benefits developing children
of the relationship in their preparation for adulthood.

Rod

[Welles]

My thought about atheists: Most kids go through a phase during which they think they are smarter than their parents. Atheists are simply going through a phase when they think they are smarter than God.

Any time I've been snookered into the 'atheist' debate my default logic is this. "Have you ever experimented with asking inside for guidance? If you sincerely inquire within, you will always get an answer. That is the best way to begin to know God. If you haven't even tried you are missing an essential aspect of what it means to be human."

[Starwalker]

Hi Welles,

I think that is a good way to look at atheists. There is a lot of confusion in this world, and it seems that no two people see things the same. Perhaps we all have our blinders on to some degree. I do find it sad when people are not even open to the idea of God’s existence. Hopefully someday they will realize the reason for that sadness.

If you ask me, which no one has but I’m going to tell you anyway, the atheists aren’t the biggest problem, though they are not of the solution either. The bigger problem is the anti-theists; those who actively work against God’s will. But God’s attitude towards these people is still love. Imagine that! However, mercy cannot be forced upon anyone. I often wonder what makes people this way. Mental aberrations is my best guess.

But He makes the sun shine on the good and the wicked, and He is infinitely wiser than us. I suppose we’ll know all about it further along.

Take care,
Jonathan

[happyrain]

I realize I haven't answered this in the typical fashion because I would not engage myself in debate with someone over the matter. I believe their path is valid, I have Faith in God as Creator of All. I do not believe he made a mistake. Nature teaches us the wholeness behind duality. So it is with the various personalities incarnate here that make a whole. It is more important for my self to navigate this life by seeking harmony and living closer to the truth within- to Feel God. To share and BE in that splendor.

[Starwalker]

I agree, Eric. There is no debate really, just choice. And we are a disadvantaged planet. Whether we realize it or not, all of our spiritual experiences have been marred by the Lucifer rebellion. And this will be the case for many generations to come as well. I like to think that all will choose rehabilitation, just as I am struggling to rehabilitate myself. I still question if I will reach the goal of the ages myself. But somehow I always pick myself up and stumble forward. I pray we all find the strength to do the same.

We are all one at our root Source. Therefore, every sin that exists on this planet exists in every one of us. No one is better than anyone else, though some are farther along on the path than others. It falls on those that are a few steps ahead to help out the ones lagging behind. And sometimes that requires tough love. I’m still working on this myself because I know that of those who have more, more will be expected.

[happyrain]

My belief... Through nonordinary states of consciousness I've shared memories/feelings and ideas of that with a fallen angel. There's no blame, the world is a reflection of what's happening within. It's hard for people to accept that they have some responsibility for the state of affairs we find ourselves in- there is no fault outside ourselves. It seems you agree. For those reading who disagree, it's completely fine- all that matters is choice.

We're choosing to do the work... Gurunath declares Self Peace for Earth Peace. Working on ourselves means Heaven on Earth is possible.
Some truths... When I point my finger, there are three more fingers pointing right back at me... When I stare at a mirror, the reflection does not smile until I choose to smile.

One of my favorites, expressed by Inayat Khan... There is only one virtue and one sin... Virtue when he is conscious of God- Sin when he is not.

[Starwalker]

Hi Eric

Yes, I agree. The only person we can truly change is ourself. By letting the goodness, truth, and beauty we have acquired show, we can act as agents of change by being way showers. I think the Truth portion of this equation is where the tough love comes in. But each individual has to decide for themselves if they want to be a part of the Great Plan or not. And their choice on this matter is always respected.

I like your point about pointing fingers. It’s so easy to see fault in others. But it has been said that we see in others what exists in ourselves. I came across a man rummaging through a garbage can this week. The man who passed by him before me was condescending and berated him for doing it. When I got to where he was, he was upset and told me he hadn’t eaten for 3 days and was hungry. I gave him the sandwich I had packed for my lunch, wished him well, and continued on to my place of work. It was actually a small gesture and looking back I think I should have done more, like directed him to the local soup kitchen. But the point is, we are all searching for something be it food or spiritual enlightenment. We are not so unlike the man picking through the garbage can, we have to go through the dirt in order to find the treasure. And one man’s garbage truly is another man’s treasure.

I work hard to ensure that my needs and those of my family are met. But you never know what circumstances we will face in the future. So we should all think twice before being condescending with less fortunate people, for tables have a way of turning sometimes. The only time we should be looking down on someone is when we are helping them up.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[Starwalker]

Of course, the condescending man may have had good intentions as well. It’s not an easy thing to witness someone who has resorted to this behaviour to meet basic needs. I think many people would turn a blind eye to it. And I can see myself in both those types of people as well. I can be critical of people at times. And sometimes I can turn a blind eye as well. We are imperfect by design. While others can serve as mirrors of our own imperfections, they can also serve as mirrors of our own accomplishments. The main thing is that we remain willing to face the mirror.

[Starwalker]

After reading today’s celestial message, I thought of this thread. I spoke of problems associated with unbelief, but we cannot forget the problems associated with belief as well. While believing in God is not a delusion, as some people would have us believe, there are delusions associated with belief systems. Our minds are imperfect electrochemical systems and things can go wrong with them. This really drives home the importance of remaining positive. We should never take ourselves too seriously. All will be known by and by. Let us not forget to enjoy the human experience!

[RunningScroll]

Hi All.

Thanks for your wisdom, I agree!

My friend Christine is a very intelligent woman, and I really respect her mind, and the conclusions she comes to, even though I disagree.

She really gets stuck at the point of, why does the Universal Father, permit humans to do extraordinarily bad things, without stepping in to stop it? And why doesn't God more stridently alert us to His presence, why hasn't God tapped her on the shoulder for instance?

I agree with Welles, that if she went within, and sought His presence, the likelihood is she would find Him.

Can anyone see how to help her with this problem?

Cheers,
Dylan

[happyrain]

the answer to that question has to do with belief. and the best way to help her is to let her go her own way. her belief will change. you must help your self, by learning to allow the other with such stark difference of personal belief- go on. she is not violent with her beliefs, and if you can show her respect for her current state of evolution- hopefully that helps her respect who you are and where you are too...

from my sufi friend...
Commentary by Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan:

Someone once said to a Brahmin, 'O ignorant man, you have worshipped this idol for years. Do you think it can ever answer you?' 'Yes,' said the Brahmin, 'even from this idol of stone the answer will come if your faith is real. But if you have no real faith, you will get no answer even from the God in heaven.' ... The first necessity is the belief that there is such a Being as God, in whom goodness, beauty, and greatness are perfect. In the beginning it will seem nothing but a belief; but in time, if kept in sincerity and faith, that belief will become like the egg of the Phoenix, out of which the magic bird is born.
https://wahiduddin.net/saki/saki_date.php?m=8&d=25

there are those in life who wish to be just where they are... we are all here for personal wisdom... and she, being a perfect reflection of gods will, is right where she belongs. god is her. god is you. god is all of us...

[RunningScroll]

Hi Again.

The problem is, she was once a devoted Christian, and went through a 180degree flip and rejected the idea of God, i.e. she had a faith once before. She now rails against religions and their beliefs, she has even been introduced to the UB, which she rejected as the worst book she had ever read, she thinks its mind control.

I have no personal requirement or anxiety that she believe anything in particular, I just wanted to see if you had any idea how to help her. Her intelligence is so high, I think one day she may have a spiritual breakthrough, and become a mighty servant. In God's good timing.

God bless,
Dylan

[happyrain]

Dylan, your intuition might be right.

I think the issue is thinking there's a problem. That you think she needs help. As you've said... In Gods good timing. Place Faith in God, who has your friends best interest at Heart.

I stand by my initial reply to you.

Best of luck friend!

[happyrain]

PS...

My cousin is an Atheist. That does not mean she is not an instrument of God.

"The Soul of Christ is the Light of the Universe."

The God man has warred over, the various names and beliefs, is all God. Even atheism falls under the umbrella of God. The mighty servant you see in your friend, is already there. It exist, even if she does not believe in God.

God is so vast that no one can seem to agree on the definition. How do you even know the God in your mind is the same as the God she rejects in hers? Does it matter? No...

Let me also admit, I do not read the UB. Yet the 1111 phenomenon has not excluded me from developing my own understanding.

My cousin, despite rejecting God, is a very intelligent and loving woman. She serves using her Heart. It seems some people don't contemplate the Heart either. Forgetting that in this definition we can include something more than the fleshy material that keeps this body regulated.

If God can be found anywhere- it's in the Heart. God is in your friends heart, just take the word God away from the equation. You see a good hearted person, which is why you think in the future she will be a mighty servant. She is already a mighty servant...

It's a matter of respecting the God in your friend who chooses to be where she is now. If you do that she may reconsider her friendship with you, someone who believes in the UB, and upon further evaluation she might think it isn't such a negative thing after all...

We all came here for personal experience... And the journey with God is divinely and intimately shared for All...

Thanks for the introspection. I hope this helps.

[Sandy]

Hi Dylan,
Your love, care and concern for your friend comes through with every word you post. I understand as I have a wonderful sister who is not sure there is a god of any sort. I used to worry about her... Then one day I was prompted to look at her...really look at her with eyes of the soul and I saw her as she was...beautiful and resplendent in Gods love and I realized that she walked around in life unencumbered by any theologies or confusion about God this...God that...what's right...what's wrong. She just was and is as we speak walking with God. She loves and loves mightily...she serves man/womankind and the earth and serves mightily. She just doesn't dwell on it... I've walked behind her on nature walks and it is something that flows around her that makes everything sort of brighter... hard to describe. so I am wondering if your friend may also in her own intelligent way be centered and not aware of it... If I pushed my sister she might very well dig her feet into the ground and resist and perhaps that is her prerogative, eh? I would do the same without a shadow of a doubt as I once resisted the idea that there were multiple ways "up the mountain to God." It is human nature.
I still believe your greatest gift to her is your love and acceptance as she is...Are we not taught by Christ Michael's brilliant example when he lived on earth to love and listen? Love is our greatest offense...and as well, our greatest defence. It is the answer to every problem and every question. Just love her and accept her, refusing to start or be drawn into a discussion that goes nowhere and may even in fact push her further away.
I am thinking that best help you will give her is to focus on your own spiritual progress...the perfume of it can be very enticing to those who wonder how you can be balanced and at peace in a seemingly world gone mad.
Pray for her and leave her eternity in God's hands and follow your own inner divine guidance.
(oh, and and dance joyfully in the moonlight... )

xxSandy

[RunningScroll]

Hi Guys

I agree with everything you have both said. I do see a mighty servant already, one who's been through hell and back. But I also see someone in a lot of pain, and feels like the universe is fully against her, and that there is no possibility of a loving God in that picture, and therefore religions aught to be completely dismantled. I understand where she is coming from, because religions do do damage. I don't actually want to change her, because I see her as remarkable already. What I do wish though, is that she were able to dip into God's PEACE, and feel more respected by life, I even gave her some financial resources so she could experience some material peace.

I think one of her/the problems, is what we send out, we get back, and if we can't visualise ourselves in greater wealth, and health and safety, it may not occur. I'm surprised she's struggled for so long.

I really respect her for her intellectual independence, and vibrancy despite her hardships.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Dylan